Windows 11 Release Date: October 5, 2021

[britechguy]

@Will Watts:

Amen! But I'll go back to my original statement in direct support of yours. Microsoft is the very entity that controls whether a given official upgrade/update path is available at all. Period. End of Sentence.

If such exists, then it has to be authorized. They are the authority that either allows it or doesn't.

I use the analogous argument with regard to licenses for Microsoft software (or any software, really) and reinstallations of same. When I am doing work on a new machine, and transferring software from an old one (either before or immediately after which that software will be removed if it's a single user license to the best of my knowledge) I cannot and do not know all of the details regarding whether the license was OEM, retail, or other and it is beyond the scope of a repair technician to research that for each and every license key that is presented or can be extracted. If I go through any software maker's prescribed installation process, and during that installation process enter a key when they dictate doing so, if they activate it then the only logical conclusion is that the license is legitimate. They are the entity that is in charge of license authorization and their own internal processes should be in place to do license checking when a key is presented. There are so many factors that make it difficult to impossible to know what is a valid license key when you are not dealing with brand spankin' new software. The authorizing entity is responsible for either authorizing, or declining, activation for a presented license key. If they do, then it's valid.

While we as individuals are ethically and legally required not to engage in fraud (which means you have to intend to install something in violation of known limitations) it is still the authorizing entity that is the ultimate gatekeeper. If they don't block my entry, and I have behaved in good faith, what more am I supposed to have done?

 

[Digerati]

You can rationalize it anyway you want. Just because something is not stopped or blocked or even if it is allowed to happen, that does not mean it is authorized. I see cops ignore folks who are speeding, fail to use their turn signals, or who roll through stop signs. I've seen cops do those same things (without lights and sirens). That does not mean those drivers are "authorized" to do those things.

Perhaps I should have said, "an official path" rather than "an authorized path".

As Leo puts it here,

Officially Windows 10 is no longer free, but there remains at least one unofficial scenario that may allow you to upgrade for free.

I see it as the same as those "too good to be true" prices for Office and Windows keys you can buy from Kinguin and on eBay and elsewhere. Are the keys genuine? Yes. Is Kinguin an "authorized" Microsoft software retailer? No. Are the keys legitimate and authorized for individual resale and use? No.

But do they work? Yes - for now.

And if they, or free upgrades were truly legit, why doesn't NewEgg, Walmart, Micro Center or Amazon sell those them too.


***

I get really flummoxed by the widespread and rampant desire to get the next version of Windows for free - and then the hate towards Microsoft at the very thought of paying for it. It makes no sense.

No other software company is subjected to this. Windows is cheap!!!!! Windows 1.0 cost $100 back in 1985. That would be almost $250 today. Yet the full retail version of W10 from MS today is $139 - for a one-time cost! Walmart sells an official license for W10 PRO OEM for $75 - again for a one-time cost. Is it really that much of a ball-buster? No.

Norton charges you to buy and then you have to renew and renew and renew - forever! You are forced into a subscription plan that essentially means another "bill" we have to regularly pay, over and over and over again to keep using the program.

The same is true for so many other programs. It is even common for "lifetime" licenses to not really be lifetime. The company just makes the program a totally new version, then forces consumers buy again. Where's the hate for them?

It would be nice if Microsoft set the record straight with a clear-cut, in our face page of the policy. But they have taken the stand to just be quiet about it. My advice - read your EULAs.

 

[britechguy]

My advice - read your EULAs.

Believe it or not, I have. And when it comes to Windows, specifically, I'd give just the opposite advice because there's plenty of both incomprehensible and conflicting information in those.

We are never going to agree entirely, but I don't care what you call it, when it comes to Windows Upgrades there is a Microsoft issued method that works when you download what you need to from Microsoft and follow the steps. It's valid, or they would not allow it to continue. Tacit approval from the controlling entity is still approval.

And you can call the above rationalization all you like. It's a simple statement of fact. I am not, and never shall be, the gatekeeper for Microsoft or anyone else except to a minimal extent. I do not break EULAs with intent, but virtually no one has ever read one. They go through "the process" designated by the maker to install, and it's up to the maker to either allow or block. And nowhere would this be more so than with a free upgrade path provided by a given software maker.

 

[Digerati]

there is a Microsoft issued method that works when you download what you need to from Microsoft and follow the steps.

If you visit the Microsoft website, and there is a link that essentially says, "to upgrade to Windows 11 click here and follow the steps", and that process works, then go for it. As you noted, Microsoft probably is not going to stop you so you can "get away with it".

But when I build my new computer with a new motherboard, I will repurpose this "OEM" W10 computer to make it my backup computer, then retire the current and even older computer currently serving as my backup computer. Because I will have a new motherboard, I will need a new copy of Windows for the new computer, and I will purchase a new W11 license - even though I am sure I could use my old original W7 and W10 disks to manipulate the system and get a free copy of W11 for the new machine.

And if I am giving advice, that is the advice I will give to others too.

BTW, if anyone is not sure if your current license is OEM or retail, call up Settings and look at the About tab (it might be under System). If there is an OEM in the product ID, that license is tied to that motherboard.

 

[britechguy]

As you noted, Microsoft probably is not going to stop you so you can "get away with it".

And it is the very phrase "get away with it" that, to me, makes no sense. When the controlling entity allows something, it's not "getting away with" when the prescribed steps are followed exactly. It's supported. It's how the function is designed to function.

Having been a programmer for years, I know just how easy it is to "flip a switch" that will not allow code execution of something when that's desired. If the issuing entity isn't flipping that switch then they're supporting something.

 

[Digerati]

I don't know who you are trying to kid, or who you think you are trying to kid, but come on! If you have been a programmer for years, then you would know it is NOT as easy as flipping a switch or changing a 0 to 1.

If the developer only wanted to verify the computer currently has Windows 10 installed, then fine. That is simple.

But if the developer wanted to verify the user currently is an authorized user with a legitimate, genuine license with an authentic and valid Product ID, that would require much more than just flipping a switch! And that is not just a more complex process, but it also would require maintaining an extensive data base (with 1 billion+ entries just for W10), that can be accessed and allow inquiries, potentially millions of time a day, by any Tom, Dick, Jose, Vladimir, Chang, Mohammed, Jane or Harry, from all over the world - securely.

So please stop trying to obfuscate the issue.

The facts are well known. You can indeed transfer a full retail license for W10 to a new motherboard, and then use that license to upgrade to W11.

But if the current license is an OEM license, then it is inextricably tied to the current motherboard. If that motherboard supports W11, then you can upgrade to W11. But you cannot use that license to "justify" downloading and installing W11 on a "new" computer or motherboard.

IF you don't currently have Windows 10 installed, then see this "official" Microsoft policy:

Upgrade to Windows 10: FAQ

Is the Windows 10 free upgrade offer still available?

The Windows 10 free upgrade through the Get Windows 10 (GWX) app ended on July 29, 2016.

 

[britechguy]

So please stop trying to obfuscate the issue.

It is not I who is trying, or actually, obfuscating anything.

It is a simple matter, dirt simple, to do the preliminary checks in a piece of software like is used to decide if an update should proceed to make that determination. This is all already extant.

You are moving the goal post and putting words in my mouth that I never said. If you believe that Microsoft cannot, with ease, implement the checks necessary to decide, for any given install or upgrade, whether it wants it to proceed or not then there is nothing whatsoever left to discuss. They can, they do, and their choices about which things they check or don't check is what actually defines "official policy," not anything in writing, anywhere. They are responsible for making the determination as to whether an install process can proceed. Period. End of sentence.

And I don't give a damn about what Microsoft has been saying about the ability to upgrade from Windows 7 or 8/8.1 since July of 2016, because their own installers don't enforce it. It isn't the first, and won't be the last, time that Microsoft's statements and documentation are at variance from what they support.

 

[Digerati]

It is not I who is trying, or actually, obfuscating anything.

Sorry, but it is. And the following is an example.

It is a simple matter, dirt simple, to do the preliminary checks in a piece of software like is used to decide if an update should proceed to make that determination

Nobody, and that includes me, said it was hard. In fact, right from the beginning I said the upgrade path works. That fact was never in dispute. So this just obfuscates or clouds the issue with irrelevant points.

Where did I put words in your mouth? I get very irritated when others misquote me, twist my words, or put words in my mouth that change the gist of my point. So I try very hard not to do that to others. So please show where I have implied you said something you didn't, and if I am guilty of changing the gist of your comment, I will clarify and apologize.

and their choices about which things they check or don't check is what actually defines "official policy,"

No. That's not even how life in general works.

not anything in writing, anywhere.

Expanding on my police analogy, this suggests the "official policy" is rolling through stop signs is legal because cops have made the choice not to ticket drivers who fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs. This, despite the fact, the "written" law states drivers must come to a complete stop at all stop signs. Police chiefs could easily direct all traffic cops to crack down on the violators of that law. But apparently, they haven't - at least not in the entire Omaha, Lincoln, Council Bluffs area of the country where I live. Yet the "official policy" is that it is still not legal, even though drivers can easily "get away with it."

I note I also clearly said, "It would be nice if Microsoft set the record straight with a clear-cut, in our face page of the policy." And again, I wish they would because then, heated (and often emotional) discussions like this would be moot and pointless.

***

Now the topic of this thread is Microsoft announced on October 5, the free upgrade to Windows 11 began rolling out to "eligible" Windows 10 PCs and PCs pre-loaded with Windows 11 became available for purchase.

My apologies to Corrine for my part in running it OT.

So back on topic, my "eligible" (and supposedly compatible) laptop is still waiting. And I am waiting for WU to offer it and will allow it to upgrade as per MS defaults. In this way, I can see how the vast majority of users will experience it. This will [hopefully] give me some insight so if my clients (or family and friends) have problems, I hopefully know how to help them.

In the meantime, it is "hurry up and wait" and after 24 years in the military, I am an expert at that.

 

[britechguy]

Nobody, and that includes me, said it was hard. In fact, right from the beginning I said the upgrade path works. That fact was never in dispute. So this just obfuscates or clouds the issue with irrelevant points.

I'll just address this one point, as I agree with you that we've gone off the central point in this topic.

That comment was a general observation that IF Microsoft wanted to enforce, it is a simple matter for them to do so. They could have made their software match the never enforced 2016 notice if that was their intent. They didn't. If what Microsoft does in the field with Microsoft's own stuff, in practice, is not officially supported then we have no ability to agree on the definition of officially supported. And it's clear we don't.

The police analogy, while having validity, is not quite the same in that it's the legislature(s) that create the laws and the police that enforce them. Software makers, all of them, are both legislature and cop if they so desire. They have complete control and no "separation of powers."

 

[DR M]

I just upgraded one of my computers and now I'm exploring Windows 11. It's like I bought a new computer and I like that.

FYI, I first ran the application for compatibility and it said that the processor was not supported for Windows 11. I took the risk and upgraded.

 

[britechguy]

I took the risk and upgraded.

Please report back on what happens going forward in regard to Windows Update actually updating your machine.

There is no question that Windows 11 can run on scads of hardware that it's not "officially blessed" for, exactly as Windows 10 did and does. The big difference is that Microsoft is giving very, very clear signals that if Windows 11 is installed on hardware not deemed compatible that updates will not be supplied. But given the track record of saying one thing, and doing another, we need to know what actually happens.

My jaw dropped when they made it possible to install Windows 11 on non-supported hardware with a method they provided. Microsoft and mixed messaging are, apparently, never going to have and amicable divorce.

I never use "what they say" as the metric of what's supported. It's what they do or allow in practice that is.

 

[Digerati]

Microsoft is giving very, very clear signals that if Windows 11 is installed on hardware not deemed compatible that updates will not be supplied.

Actually, it says (my bold underline added) "Devices that do not meet these system requirements will no longer be guaranteed to receive updates" and "your PC will not be supported and won't be entitled to receive updates". I don't find that "very clear" at all. It suggests to me you "may" still receive "some" updates - but no promises they will work or that your system will remain secure.

 

[DR M]

Quality, definition, driver and other updates have been already installed. For now, I'm fine.

 

[britechguy]

Actually, it says (my bold underline added) "Devices that do not meet these system requirements will no longer be guaranteed to receive updates" and "your PC will not be supported and won't be entitled to receive updates". I don't find that "very clear" at all. It suggests to me you "may" still receive "some" updates - but no promises they will work or that your system will remain secure.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will agree with you, absolutely, that the language used definitely includes the possibility of "wiggle room" or "change of plan." But, based on what I know of how Microsoft has phrased things in the past, these statements strongly telegraph to me that they are going to stop those updates, dead in their tracks and with little or no warning, in the foreseeable future.

It's way less "mealy mouthed" than a lot of their announcements have been. Yet, at the same time, the very thing we argued about earlier, the end of the "officially supported" free upgrade path from Windows 7/8/8.1 to Windows 10, was announced as what I considered a definite statement saying the spigot was being turned off as of July 19, 2016. Yet, they didn't.

"Do as I say, not as I do," has no applicability in the world of software installation. "As I do" is the ultimate arbiter, and the developers can and do choose to enforce or not.

Time will tell with Windows 11. I will admit that my impressions could be entirely wrong. [When it comes to Microsoft, I often think of what's said about Asian cultures (it may just be Japan, but I can't recall now) where, in negotiations, "absolutely not" means something is still open for negotiation while, "perhaps/maybe/we'll think about it," is used to directly telegraph absolute refusal.] I never take MS pronunciations as fiats, but use them to "read the tea leaves," as that's the only thing that seems to have been at all useful to me over the decades I've been in this business.

 

[Digerati]

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It does not say, "...will not receive updates." It seems you really just want to disagree with me but in fact you are just disagreeing with Microsoft. I quoted what they said. You can interpret that however you wish.

I'm done here.

 

[philc43]

The wait is over for me. My laptop was upgraded to W11 this evening. The notice advising me that my Surface Laptop 3 was eligible for W11 has been sitting there for the last 2 weeks and today it showed the W11 is ready to download and install banner. It took about 60mins from start to finish: about 10min to download, 40min to install and just under 10min for the reboot to the new W11 desktop. Everything went very smoothly and now I'm like a kid with a new toy

As an insider I had already played around with W11 on a virtual machine so I have hit the ground running and already knew my way around the new features. Using it on the Surface is a lot better than in the VM which was hosted on my much older desktop.

 

[Digerati]

Yeah, my laptop got the upgrade this morning. I too was already familiar with it. I have mixed feelings starting with the fact there is no way to increase the task bar height by simply dragging it up. I am very disappointed in that because, since XP, I have always had a 3-line clock showing the Time, Day, then Date. A 3-line clock creates a 2 row task bar - something else I have always had and liked because it lets me install the old Quick Launch toolbar under the standard Taskbar. It also gives room for the Address toolbar.

So far, I've seen no tweak to deal with that. Only complaints like this: Windows 11 Taskbar lost these features - A pity!.

W11 does function well - all my laptop's hardware seems to work find - no complaints with speed.

This, my main computer is not W11 compatible so stuck with W10 here for awhile. I am planning on building a new computer for my birthday (February) and hopefully by then, some tweaks will be out so I can make W11 look and feel the way I like it - not how MS wants me to like it. I also hope by then the supply chain problems will be on the mend as well as the chip shortage.

 

[Will]

I'm finding W11 fine so far.

I also hope by then the supply chain problems will be on the mend as well as the chip shortage.

I wanted to upgrade my PC, or maybe even a new build, but not much point until next year...

 

[Gary R]

and hopefully by then, some tweaks will be out so I can make W11 look and feel the way I like it - not how MS wants me to like it.

Yes, don't like the default W11 interface at all, and until I'm able to tweak it to make it look and feel the way I want, I will not be upgrading.

 

[axe0]

Upgraded my laptop this weekend and loving W11 so far. I am all for this fluent design and am really glad Microsoft finally gave Windows a much needed "make-over" in many elements, particularly Windows Explorer.