My New Planned Builds

[Digerati]

The savings is negligible... Either one, with the current proposed build will not come close to it's efficiency because the Wattage rating is much higher than what the system will draw, at least at the moment... PSUs will not reach peak efficiency until after 70% load in most cases. If you are only loading the PSU at 50% to 60% you are going to see reduced efficiency...

Ummm, no, sorry but that is no longer true. MANY years ago, that was correct. And it still is for basic power supplies that are used in applications where the load stays relatively constant. And it may still be for el-cheapo supreme, budget, generic, no-name PSUs we constantly remind users to avoid.

Since computer loads are not constant the very purpose of 80 PLUS Certifications is to ensure efficient operation over a variety of loads and NOT just at 70% utilization. This is no easy task for electrical engineers designing power supplies because as you suggest, PSUs tend to have one peak efficiency point. So to achieve a high and "flat" or "linear" efficiency rating, an 80+ Certified PSU must be of good design and use better quality (tighter tolerances) parts. This is how even Rosewill - often chided for making lousy PSUs, is getting good reviews with their with 80+ Certified PSUs - as seen here.

This is why, with a good PSU it does no harm (other than to your purchase budget) to buy way too big of a PSU - because it will still remain efficient, even when barely tasked, 50% tasked, or maxed out. If the computer needs 300W and the PSUs are equally rated at 85% efficiency, each PSU will draw from the wall ~353W (353 x .85 = 300.05) whether the PSU is rated at 550W or 1000W. That extra 53 is wasted in the form of heat felt at the back of the PSU. So obviously the more efficient the PSU, the fewer watts in the form of heat will be wasted.

And while the 2 or 3% advantage of the Gold over the Silver is a small amount, that still adds up over "years" and as I noted, will cost "slightly less" to operate than a less efficient PSU. Whether that is negligible or not would depend on your other household electricity use.

Price/Performance is the concern at this pont, and the Intel products are quite a bit more $$$ than the AMD equivalents.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "quite a bit more". If you are looking at just the price of the CPU, $50 (if that!) may seem like quite a bit more. But if looking at the price of the whole computer, the difference between $1749 vs $1799 is not so bad.

If you look at the AMD and Intels on this Newegg page, you will see 95 to 125W listed for most of the AMDs and 65 - 77W for most Intels. The biggest Intel is only 95W. If costs are your concern and you will be owning the computer for several years, get an Intel. Over the life of the CPU, its lower operating costs will more than pay for the difference.

I said before "with notable exceptions" and certainly Intel has some extreme exceptions with $1000+ CPUs that crank out 130W! :eek4: I am not sure their purpose other than bragging rights for someone with lots more money than me.

GZ has a point, true these machines will never probably peak the power supplies.

You did not put the graph headings in there. The column headings are 20%, 50%, and 100% loads. So that graph is showing how those PSUs are staying just +/- 1.5% around the averages of 86.5 and 88.5% respectively. Those are amazing tolerances over a very wide ranging load! Clearly not just one peak at 70% utilization.

And I agree 750W is more than you need, but that is not a bad thing, and 750W is not overkill. In fact, it will allow the PSU to loaf around most of the time, and that means the PSU's cooling will (hopefully) be able to toggle back the fan speed and generate less noise.

Even then at 75% efficiency that's good enough for me.

Just remember, that means for every 100W pulled from the wall, only 75W is getting delivered to the computer. That means if your motherboard, CPU, RAM, graphics, drives, and fans all need 300W, your PSU must pull from the wall 400W (400W x .75 = 300W). That's the same as having a 100W light bulb burning in the sunlight.

 

[Anthony N]

75% efficiency is a lot better than let's say 50% or worse. Ideally if anything is under 70% efficient there's a problem.

Let's be realistic, sure I'm buying a 750w PSU, but what's gonna happen two or five years down the road and I'm doing F@H and decide to play a video game? Nice thing about F@H is it only uses what it can without messing with processes. But none the less, there will be a time when that 750w PSU just can't take the stress and can only support 700w or worse. It's just asking for trouble, I "over estimate" my PSU requirements on purpose.

I remember when I didn't understand voltage rails and the PSU had 3 fans... But one thing was a constant, heat. Lot's of it. It was 80 Plus certified. It had 4 rails and a total output of 650w.

I paid like 80 something for it, but one day, the rails slowly started to fail and would transfer the load to the other rails, I didn't understand the feature but it was advertised as having "smart rails" so that it could balance the load.

I noticed that it was kicking more and more heat and the fans were spinning slower and slower as each rail failed. I walked away to go to school, came home and noticed my room smelled of electronics. I sat down at my computer and proceeded to browse the web and then launched my favorite game at the time (The Sims 2). My GPU load went up as normal, but then the heat also went up and didn't come back down, I noticed my GPU's fan had failed. Ok whatever, cheap fan. I used the crippled GPU for a while. I noticed a quick camera like flash from inside my computer, and sure enough smoke started dumping out of my PSU. I tried to unplug my computer from the surge protector but it kept shocking me so I had to through the switch. I went down to the basement and killed the circuit breaker it was found tripped before I even got to it.

Came back up, yep everything was off. So I tried unplugging the surge protector. Until I realized it melted to the outlet. Weird thing was, only the Monitor's and the PSU's cords were melted, everything else was electrically sound.

Restored power with a new outlet, new surge protector, new PSU, and used the on-board GPU. To this day, I don't understand what failed... or a chain of events.

Point is, this is why I buy single rail PSU's and over shoot my wattage because I almost had what could of became a serious computer fire if I didn't come home when I did.

 

[Digerati]

75% efficiency is a lot better than let's say 50% or worse.

Well of course. But even junk PSUs are typically good for 70%.

Ideally if anything is under 70% efficient there's a problem.

30 years ago with DC switching power supplies, I would agree. But not today. 80% is not good, so 70 is lousy.

Let's be realistic, sure I'm buying a 750w PSU, but what's gonna happen two or five years down the road and I'm doing F@H and decide to play a video game? Nice thing about F@H is it only uses what it can without messing with processes. But none the less, there will be a time when that 750w PSU just can't take the stress and can only support 700w or worse. It's just asking for trouble, I "over estimate" my PSU requirements on purpose.

I don't know what point you are trying to make. Yes, due to "aging" all PSUs get weak over time (though todays' much less than PSUs of just 10 years ago). That is one reason you buy more power than you need. But still, 700W is a lot - way more than you will need with your current hardware. If you decide to add a second (or third) graphics card, then you may need a bigger supply.

I paid like 80 something for it, but one day, the rails slowly started to fail and would transfer the load to the other rails, I didn't understand the feature but it was advertised as having "smart rails" so that it could balance the load.

Ummm, I am afraid you still don't understand it. Transferring to other rails has NOTHING to do with anything failing. It is all based on demand, not failure. And certainly there is NOTHING - NADA -Zilch (other than marketing propaganda) to suggest multiple rails are better than one big one.

The theory is built on isolation - not redundancy or some sort of backup in case of rail failure. The idea for multiple-rail power supplies in electronics is so various components could operate with a dedicated, but isolated power source so that the failure of one powered device would not affect any other powered device, and they could continue to operate.

But that does not apply to a computer. What good does it do to keep power going to the graphics card if the CPU's rail goes down?

In fact, multiple rail PSUs are more complex, and therefore more expensive, contain more parts and therefore potential points of failures. Plus, multi-rail PSUs are forced to keep back (reserve) power on each rail which means the full capability will never be realized. I seek out and only buy single rail systems. Load balancing is not necessary and in computer PSUs is another marketing gimmick.

Point is, this is why I buy single rail PSU's and over shoot my wattage because I almost had what could of became a serious computer fire if I didn't come home when I did.

That's fine but understand you did NOT almost have a fire because you had a multi-rail PSU. You almost had a fire because you had a fault somewhere with something that had nothing to do with the fact it was a multi-rail PSU.

 

[Anthony N]

Thank you for sorting that out Bill.

P.S. - Irregardless of who's fault it was for the short, I'd still like to know what failed, or was it a notorious surge. After I got off my high horse about the PSU another tech friend of mine told me it probably was voltage spike, I told him that doesn't make since we have a whole-house surge arrestor. Then he went into about amps, under and over voltages... limitations, ect ect.

He said I was lucky that I didn't and still don't have a house electrical fire. He said it's hard to say why it isolated to one outlet and if the house wiring was damaged.

 

[Digerati]

or was it a notorious surge

I told him that doesn't make since we have a whole-house surge arrestor

And why I recommend ALL computer hardware and other sensitive and expensive electronics (TVs and home theater equipment) be on a "good" UPS w/AVR - automatic voltage regulation.

Surge and spike protectors are inadequate and little more than fancy, expensive extension cords as they do absolutely nothing for abnormal low voltage events like dips (opposite of spikes) and sags (opposite of surges), and long duration sags (brownouts). A "good" UPS with AVR will help shape (regulate) the sinewave into something more easily used by the devices plugged into it. In low voltage events, it will use the batteries to boost the signal, and in extreme high voltage events, it will use the batteries to dump the excess into (which batteries can absorb with ease).

Note I keep saying "good" UPS with AVR. Like power supplies, there are cheap, good, and best. The best are very expensive $400 or more. The ATX Form Factor standard requires all PSUs to "hold" voltages for 19ms (milliseconds) in during abnormal power events. A "good" UPS can react easily within that time frame.

One more word about surge and spike protectors. They work primarily by using MOV devices which are excellent at absorbing excess current. BUT, they do that by converting the excess to heat. As noted in my sig, heat is the bane of all electronics, even MOV devices. So over time, the constant banging wears down the MOVs so they become less effective, or even useless.

And if you have a severe event, in that case, S&S protectors are like motorcycle helmets. If it saved your life when banging into the concrete curb, it did its job and it is time to throw it away and get a new one, because surely it is now much weaker and less capable.

Note, until now I've said nothing about power during a total power outage - that's because that's just the icing on the cake. The AVR is the key thing. And note that bad (or good) climate areas have little to do with it. Any major appliance in your home can produce destructive anomalies. A $15, 1500W hair dryer made in some obscure factory in the backwoods of China, using parts from a similar factory upriver comes to mind.

Note that whole-house surge arrestors protect your equipment from surges coming off the "grid" - such as lightning hitting the transformer on the pole down the street - where most destructive surges come from. But whole-house arrestors do not protect you from surges and spikes that are generated by other high-wattage devices inside your house or office. Refrigerators, water coolers, microwave ovens, toasters, hair drivers all send surges, spikes, dips and sags EVERY TIME they cycle on and off. And PSUs, and most electronics are fully capable of handling them. But occasionally, one of those devices will send an abnormal surge or spike and there is where you will need separate protection at each sensitive (expensive) device.

And again, no surge or spike protector will protect you from low voltage events which strain regulator circuits (creating lots of heat), or cause sudden, unexplained (unless, perhaps you noticed the lights flicker) shutdowns.

Finally, with a properly sized UPS, you can protect your computer, your monitor (handy when trying to finish what you are doing during an outage), or monitors (if LCD), and all your network gear with ease. And most come with software to interface with your OS to automatically save your work and "gracefully" shut down Windows and your computer before the batteries run out - without user intervention.

if the house wiring was damaged.

That's why EVERYONE should have a AC Outlet Tester. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart.

 

[Anthony N]

You missed one important thing, while AVR is awesome to have, don't forget that the UPS must be compatible with active PFC PSUs or you will burn through battery life like nobodies business or damage the UPS altogether.

 

[Digerati]

or you will burn through battery life like nobodies business.

Hmmm, I understand the problem and agree with you 100% about compatibility. But I have not seen the issue with battery life, and my friend Bing Google is not shedding any light there either - that is, I can not find anything to suggest a trend or pattern of problems using a UPS with ATX compliant "computer" power supplies. There may be isolated cases, for sure - but I think you can point to generic PSUs and cheap UPS as the problem, or simply a fault somewhere.

A PSU without PFC may be less efficient than a PSU with but what the UPS sees is the load/utilization "at the time". That inefficiency may decrease battery runtime during an outage, but not by much. It is not likely you continue taxing the PSU during a power outage (and thus maxing out demand on the UPS batteries) by playing your most demanding game, or Folding. While UPS uptime during a power outage is an important feature of any UPS, again it is the AVR that is most important, not extended backup power.

All a UPS must do during a full power outage is (1) provide a seamless (uninterrupted) cut-over to battery and (2) provide enough runtime to save any open documents, exit running programs, "gracefully" shutdown Windows, then power off. Any more is gravy. If the computer is "mission critical" and must stay up 24/7/365, something other than "battery" backup is needed; natural gas or gas/diesel generator.

I've been using UPS on computer equipment since the late 80s with countless number of computers and associated network equipment, at work in computer labs and data-processing centers, and at home. In fact I have 6 UPS in the house right now - 5 on computer/networking equipment and one on my home theater equipment to support my TV, BRay, cable converter/DVR, and surround sound receiver.

Most UPS use 1, 2, or 4 SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries and with the rare exception of an isolated cell (cell= a single battery in a group of batteries), my experience is the batteries typically need to be replaced about every 3 years, regardless the load or runtime on them. And SLA technology (same as your car battery - assuming gas powered car) is nothing special or proprietary. So don't buy replacement batteries from the UPS maker. I have pealed the labels off this APC 12V 7Ah F1 SLA Battery only to find this generic Universal Battery 12V 7Ah F1 SLA Battery. I am not criticizing APC - they all do it. The money matters in the intelligence, regulation, and cutover speeds of the UPS - not the batteries. Unless you get an expensive UPS with lithium batteries.

That said, I always recommend getting quality power supplies and I did emphasize above getting a "good" UPS with AVR. You don't have to spend $500 for a UPS (and you can, easily and lots more), but you should avoid the $50 UPS - at least for your high-speed digital electronics.

Oh, BTW - Radio Shack will take in your old batteries for recycling.

 

[Anthony N]

No need for RS, We have a local incinerator that I've worked for and watched the recycling process. I honestly trust them more.

As for buying generic replacements, understandable. Just like for alkaline I tend to stick to Rayovac, rather than Energizer or Duracell. Well, unless I have a manufacture's coupon.

 

[Digerati]

No need for RS, We have a local incinerator that I've worked for and watched the recycling process.

Incinerator? You don't incinerate batteries. You don't incinerate lead. Incinerating is not recycling.

I honestly trust them more.

I see no reason not to trust Radio Shack to get batteries to the proper recycling centers.

 

[Anthony N]

Lord help me.... we didn't burn them i worked in the recycling division

And our radio shacks do not take batteries for recycling. Since the local incinerator is licenced through the county for recycling them. I called while I was on my dinner break.

Also I have never trusted radio shack for anything since I moved here in 2001.

 

[Digerati]

Also I have never trusted radio shack for anything since I moved here in 2001.

Why? What have they done that was dishonest? Deceitful? Or otherwise improper that would cause you to say they cannot be trusted?

As a technician, I do not use RS as my primary source for electronics parts. But RS is great, for example, for cables and connectors. Now granted, they do carry some cheap cables, but their better line of cables (HDMI, audio, DVI, Ethernet, etc. and connectors), are good stuff and I would highly recommend them over the outlandish prices for the lower quality junk "Monster" cables puts out. They also carry some good precision tools, quality crimpers, and more. I would certainly go to RS for any of those type items before thinking of going to Best Buy, Staples, or the like.

 

[GZ]

Radio Shack is far from what it used to be. And unfortunately, their tools and components aren't as good as what you might expect... And their prices are quite high in many departments... There are no corporate run Radio Shacks within a 100 mile radius of me, they are all franchised... Which makes it worse in many cases...

As for a trust issue... I wouldn't trust the sales-folk... They are there to make sales... But if you know what you are looking for and what you want to spend, then Radio Shack is a good source for many things. I particularly like that most Radio Shacks in my area carry Arctic Silver and Arcti-Clean...

Most of what I used to shop for at Radio Shack I don't anymore... Heatshrink and Primary wire I order offline... RJ-45 connectors can be had many places, I usually use Lowes or Home Depot for them and Cat5 and Coax because I have credit lines through both of them... Radio-Shack's heatshrink leaves a lot to be desired as well... I actually prefer Harbor Freight for heatshrink and zip-ties.

I have had most of my tools for many years, and haven't been in the market for them in quite some time... I prefer the Radio-Shack branded butane torch/soldering iron to many of the other brand. My Bernz-0-matic kit is a piece of refuse...

My biggest gripe with Radio Shack is they don't carry any of the obscure items they used to... If you don't mind ordering from the catalogue, then that is you... I prefer online resources.

I won't even get started on Best Buy... I only ever buy TVs there because I have a line of credit through them, or a Hard drive if I am in a pinch.

 

[Anthony N]

Like wise GZ, You can't say it any other way.

Not only that, but the people they hire are fools. I mean for gods sake they don't even know what a flat Ethernet cable is... They thought I wanted an HDMI cable, while it does have Ethernet abilities.

I walk into walmart BAM! "Right this way sir." Let's get this right guys. Newegg, Walmart, Amazon, they all top RS any day of the week.

 

[GZ]

I don't know about WalMart... :lol: I have to admit that the prices are pretty nice for some things, but quality is... Let's say it leaves a lot to be desired...

I like my one local PC shop... I walk in there and he has every cable you can think of... 6ft VGA cables for $8, HDMI cables for less than $10, USB cables, etc... Just about any of the adapters you could need as well...

Went into Radio Shack a couple months ago... Needed to buy a USB cable for a printer... They only had one and it was $38... I don't think so... :lol:

 

[Digerati]

It's a Radio Shack. They are a "retail outlet" that sells electronics. It is not an electronics technician's supply store. They recycle your old batteries. That's what this is about. It is ridiculous to suggest the folks at RS are dishonest because they are not qualified electronics experts. And it is ridiculous to compare them to Amazon or Walmart, or even Newegg, none which have salespeople with electronics knowledge, and likely no interest in electronics - except perhaps to play games.

But to that, I would "trust" the knowledge of the RS folks before that of the Best Buy, Staples, or Office Depot electronics parts sales people. Each RS employee must have some knowledge of TVs, stereo/home theater audio equipment, electronic toys, cell phones, cameras and more. All for little more than minimum wages. What more do you expect?

It is also ridiculous to compare RS to a local PC shop and suggest that is how all PC shops are stocked. I am glad you have a decent shop. IMO, they are too few and far between. But I think your criticism is too harsh. Computer repair shops specialize in computers and are staffed with technicians. RS is not an electronics repair shop that specializes in computer repair and is not staffed with formally trained technicians - it is not fair to compare them.

And again, this was about is recycling old batteries - so they don't end up in land fills! If you have another place locally that properly recycles this type hazardous waste (and does not charge you to do it) then great! But to NOT take your old batteries to RS for the reasons cited? No.

Not only that, but the people they hire are fools. I mean for gods sake they don't even know what a flat Ethernet cable is...

So that makes them "fools"??? That's sad. I would venture to say most people have NEVER encountered, or heard of "flat Ethernet cable".

As for USB printer cables, what can I say? $10 Belkin 16ft USB Printer Cable. Maybe they were out of these that day.

Again - RS is NOT a technician's typical supply source. But it is not meant to be either. And I will certainly stand by my comment above - I will take a RS cable over the exorbitantly priced, and inferior workmanship Monster brand cables any day of the week.

I ask again - what has RS done that was dishonest, such that you cannot trust them to recycle your old batteries?

 

[GZ]

I never compared them to local PC shops.. I merely staged that there is one PC shop that I prefer...

Radio shack isn't what the were years ago. They are now overpriced mini Best Buys...

Seriously, Digrati, is it your main purpose in life to be contrary? Is it really necessary to go into a 500 word dissertation every time you dont agree with someones point of view?

I respect your knowledge. I agree with many things that you post... but is this really necessary?

Btw... I do agree that RS employees shouldn't be labeled fools... perhaps there are a few but to generalize that point is unfair....

 

[Anthony N]

In the words of Hiccup, Thank you for summing that up.

 

[Digerati]

Seriously, Digrati, is it your main purpose in life to be contrary? Is it really necessary to go into a 500 word dissertation every time you dont agree with someones point of view?

I respect your knowledge. I agree with many things that you post... but is this really necessary?

Sorry you don't like my style of writing. I try to ensure clarity and rationale to support what I am saying. And I admit I don't like it when someone, thing or organization/company is bashed with no supporting justification.

Note I merely said, "Oh, BTW - Radio Shack will take in your old batteries for recycling" and suddenly RS is pounced on as somehow not deserving trust. Yet Walmart, and all their friendly, highly trained expert employees, apparently is a company you can trust! ???

Oh well. What do I know? Consider me hushed.

 

[GZ]

I would like to offer my apologies. I was in the wrong for posting this... It is out of character for me.

I will offer no excuse because there is none. I was out of line. Please accept my apology.

Seriously, Digrati, is it your main purpose in life to be contrary? Is it really necessary to go into a 500 word dissertation every time you dont agree with someones point of view?

I respect your knowledge. I agree with many things that you post... but is this really necessary?

 

[Cayden]

I fully agree with Bill's viewpoints. We cannot reflect how 'good' or 'specialised' a company or store is based off of one or more employees. They could be new to the job and don't know the inventory, or perhaps you're using jargon that most are unfamiliar with. Plus, if you're ever doubting of a company's practices (such as recycling of lead products) then you can always contact someone in corporate to have them explain the process to you, for example explaining whether or not their recycling centre is ISO 9001/14001 certified or not.